Trial Magazine

Navan Ward: Roxanne, what was it like to be the first female president of the association?

Roxanne Conlin: Being the president from 1992–1993 was one of my favorite things that I have ever done. I loved every single moment of it—the ups and the downs and what I came to call “the daily crisis.” It was a challenge, and it was a thrill. I love trial lawyers, and I got to meet trial lawyers all over the country.

Gene Pavalon and Bob Habush, two of my mentors, took me out to dinner in Washington, D.C., and told me that I should run for president. I said that is simply ridiculous. I can’t even think about doing that. I don’t even know why you would think I could—and then I did.

I think that many women suffer from grave insecurity, and I had some of that. But I also hadn’t been a member of the organization for very long. I felt like other members might be better suited to be the first female president. We knew when we were discussing it, that was where we were going—that if I were to do this, I would run for parliamentarian and climb up the ladder to eventually become president.

NW: Rich, you became president in 1997, and you were very engaged with the association before that. What inspired you to become so involved with AAJ?

Richard Hailey: When I graduated from law school in 1974, I made a decision that is harder to make today—I went right into private practice. And I realized very quickly that I needed actual practice skills. My wife attended AAJ meetings, and I accompanied her to my first meeting in the late ’70s. It took just one AAJ convention to realize that I had found both a safe space and the opportunity to acquire the skills that I needed.

I joined the association to learn practice-building and to participate in the education programs. But in the late ’80s, I looked at service in the organization and wanted to become a participant. The natural entry level for me was through the National College of Advocacy, the education arm of the association—it was working hard to bring the best trial lawyers into our programs and to make our programs diverse.

In the ’90s, I decided that I would run for parliamentarian. At that time, my dream did not include becoming president. I just wanted to be part of leadership and to serve on the executive committee.

NW: What were your principles of leadership as the first Black president of AAJ?

RH: Fortunately, I knew Dennis Archer, who had served on the Michigan Supreme Court and was mayor of Detroit. He would later become the first African American president of the American Bar Association. Dennis went out of his way to provide me with recommendations and his candid observations. His words played over and over in my head on many occasions: First, attempt to acquire a consensus, but at the end of the day, always be decisive. While these are general principles of leadership, they are especially true for novel situations. As a minority, I felt like there was more internal pressure to be a team player—I felt that I had to be perceived as a team player but get the job done. My mantra became: Always do the right thing, for the right reason, at the right time. Looking back, I think I was true to these principles.

NW: Roxanne, did you face any obstacles as a woman running for officer?

RC: The first election in 1988, for parliamentarian, was exceedingly close. It was then that I heard the most open, obvious criticism of me running to be an officer. It’s not because I wasn’t a good lawyer or because I wasn’t qualified. It was simply because I was a woman. People said it out loud and to my face.

The same thing happened when I became a U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Iowa. The FBI conducted 200 interviews and talked to everybody who had ever known me (even slightly) to try to find something that would disqualify me from that position. For the first six months, it was tense. I called the special agent in charge for my office, and I said, “Look, I’ve got other people I can rely on. I don’t need the FBI. But I am your only U.S. attorney, and I’m going to be here for a while, so get used to it.”

From that point forward, what happened was what I call the “conversion syndrome”: Someone learns that you are serious about doing your job, that you’re going to try your very best, that you’re going to be able to do a good job, and then they become not just supporters but hyper-supporters. That happened with many of the FBI agents, some of whom remain my friends to this day. It was not quite as extreme at AAJ, but nonetheless, it took people a while to get used to the idea of a female president. I think now, with all of the women who have been the president of this organization, at least some of that has dissipated.

NW: Roxanne, you have been a long-time women’s rights advocate and are very politically active, having served as the assistant attorney general for Iowa and, as you just mentioned, the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Iowa. How has that shaped you as a trial lawyer and during your time as an AAJ officer?

RC: My whole career is based on representing people who are disadvantaged, who are shut out, and who are stepped on and stepped over—the people that society has tried to discard. I joined AAJ in 1984, and it was the natural thing to do. I was pleased and proud to be able to participate in an organization that was devoted to advancing the cause of civil justice.

When I became parliamentarian, I looked out over the Board of Governors, and I told them that I cannot become the president of an organization whose governing body is all white and almost all men. That began a journey to create a Minority Caucus, from which we have gotten great leadership, including you, my friend.

The Women Trial Lawyers Caucus has served the same role for women. When I became the first female president, my goal was not to be the last. There are many more women and minority members of AAJ today than there were when I was the president. I’m glad, and I’m proud. It enriches every single thing that we do.

NW: About your goal to not be the last female president—did that present any additional pressure for you that may not have existed for the presidents who preceded you?

RC: Absolutely. When you are the first and only, it puts special pressure on you because everything bad that you do is attributed to your class—in my case, women—and everything good that you do makes you an exception to the general view of that class. It’s very frustrating. I think it’s still true in some respects. But at the time I was coming up, there were outspoken critics of the fact that I was an officer of an organization that they considered to be an all-white, male organization. The outspokenness was a relief in some ways because then I could address it, but it was also very upsetting and distressing. So I felt like I had to do the best possible job.

NW: What are some of the biggest shifts in diversity and inclusion that you have seen over the years?

RH: I think that sometimes when you’re working for diversity in an organization, it’s a chicken and egg situation. You have to imagine the organization that you want and cause leadership to look like that. If you can do that, then all you need to do is plug in and move forward with that vision in mind. In terms of minority participation, we’re still not where we can be, but we are much better than where we were. My dad used to say we sometimes measure progress not by where we are but by how far we’ve come.

When I spoke on behalf of AAJ, I always looked for minorities in the audience. I would walk over and say hello. I felt I had been given this tool to communicate to them that AAJ is a safe space and a great place to hone your skills and learn your craft.

And a year before I took over as parliamentarian, the association’s bylaws were amended to allow for the creation of Caucuses, including the Minority and Women’s Caucus, like Roxanne mentioned. After that structural change, Roxanne and I were fortunate enough to be active participants in the effort to form those two Caucuses. Now when the Caucuses meet, the rooms are full.

RC: When I joined AAJ, the number of female members was extremely low. So, there’s been a big shift. It took a lot of people working very hard for a very long time to make that shift. Before I became the president of AAJ, I insisted that we adopt a rule that would place women and minorities as members of every committee. That was kind of a first step. And then during my term as president, the National College of Advocacy amended its policies requiring that women and minorities be among the recommended faculty on education programs

You have to keep working at being open, inclusive, and diverse—it does not happen automatically. AAJ has a standing committee, the Diversity and Inclusion Committee, that works on these issues. That was a great step forward—to have a group in charge of ensuring that we keep our eye on the ball and that we move forward. To me, that has worked and worked well. We also have the Leadership Academy, which has helped grow the numbers of members from underrepresented groups in AAJ leadership roles. (For more on the Leadership Academy, see p. 34.)

NW: What still needs to be done?

RH: Here’s a guiding principle that I believe is implicit: Leadership is not about just becoming a beautiful flower—it’s really about seeding. Until younger attorneys are successful, I can’t give myself a grade. I look at the organization and think, OK, what happened, if anything, as a result of my leadership? What did I do to bring others into the fold? What have I done to make the organization more diverse, not just in the past or present, but into the future?

The key in maintaining and improving diversity, moving forward, is working with law schools. We need to have our members do mini-seminars, make speeches, participate in career days, and mentor. We need to crystalize a plan to reinvigorate that effort and do it in a targeted way. There are law schools that have large minority populations. We need to go in and compete with the corporate voices if we’re going to continue to diversify.

NW: Roxanne, you mentioned how, if you succeed, it’s viewed as an exception. So how important was it for you to encourage other women and minorities to prove that you weren’t an exception?

RC: I think I spoke to hundreds of women’s organizations, and I spoke at the National Bar Association (the nation’s oldest and largest bar association for Black attorneys and judges) multiple times. I reached out personally as much as I could to ensure that we were taking the kind of proactive steps that were necessary to become truly diverse. We still have some distance to go, but I think the fact that we continue to make the effort matters a great deal. We are facing systemic sexism and systemic racism. We are facing renewed, outrageous, and truly disturbing manifestations of sexism and racism. I think we have to be strong in the face of that, and we also have to continue to hold people accountable for it.

NW: What advice do you have for members to create more inclusive and diverse environments in their firms?

RH: I think that mentorship has become more important, and the primary route for that is through employment. I had the benefit of a lot of mentors—I was very fortunate to have a lot of people invested in my success.

Firms that have been successful in increasing diversity envisioned what they needed to look like and made it happen. Law student engagement, letting young minority attorneys know about clerkships and other avenues to get into the practice of law—this is what opportunity looks like. When I decided to practice, I’m not sure I realized the benefits of a clerkship. And there were no African Americans at any firms here in Indianapolis—or really any women for that matter.

In the future, as we look to improve diversity through professional engagement and career development, we’re going to have to ask our members to lead the way. You don’t always need to hire that minority candidate, but you need to include a minority candidate at least in the cast of potentials so that you can engage that community and those students. If you do that, over time you’ll find the student who will be a good fit. We’ve stepped into the whole social justice era with both feet, so we need to have those conversations with our members who have successful practices. That’s the future challenge.

RC: Be aware of implicit bias. It exists. You have it. I have it. We all have it. Be aware that you may be making judgments—adverse judgments—about people on the basis of race, gender, and sexual orientation. Have your employees go through implicit bias training. Be fair to everyone who you are considering to be a part of your law firm. And once they get there, be fair to them then too.

One of my big issues has always been the way that law firms treat their employees who are parents. It’s important for law firms to understand what parents need to be successful and to support them. Since the ’80s, my firm has encouraged parents to bring their infants to the office. This is not an on premises daycare. It is on premises parenting, and it is valuable for everyone.

NW: What advice do you have for young trial attorneys entering the profession today?

RH: We have to live diversely to be diverse. I try to warn young Black lawyers: Don’t just join the minority bar in your community—also network with the major bar and with people who don’t look like you. It’s hard to have the goal of diversity without living a diverse life, and I think that is a challenge for minority lawyers. We have to have exposure to those who are doing something positive in our profession.

That doesn’t mean loss of identity, it means an expansion—not of your identity but of your friend group, as I call it. I’m an only child married to an only child, so I have a very small family. But I have a large and flourishing tribe that is growing every year. That’s what sustains us, and it also is what makes AAJ a great association.

RC: Be flexible. Work hard. Don’t let anybody tell you that you can’t, because you can. Listen to your inner voice—it will tell you the truth. There are easier ways to make a living, but there is no better way to change lives. And that is what we do every day. It is extraordinarily fulfilling. It makes me happy. It will make you happy. I recommend this profession to anyone who cares about other human beings because we show people that someone is on their side and understands and believes their story. Someone will fight for you as long as you need someone to fight for you.

NW: As AAJ celebrates its 75th anniversary, can you reflect on some of the most meaningful experiences you’ve had with the association and your vision for AAJ as we move forward?

RC: One of the things I’m most proud of is the fact that I was responsible for our now-CEO, Linda Lipsen, coming to AAJ. She has been the best possible representative of all lawyers everywhere and for so many years. In my opinion, she’s just so phenomenal.

Looking forward, AAJ and our trial lawyers are needed now more than ever. In terms of people’s attitudes, we are a house divided against ourselves. So that means that we, as trial lawyers, have to step up. We have to make sure that the people who are being abused, killed, and disregarded are represented fully and passionately in every court and every state. We’ve got to fight with everything that we’ve got. And we can fight—we’re good at that.

RH: What I want to do is make sure that I appreciate and support the current leadership. I think that you’ll need support to successfully navigate the social justice conversation currently underway. I also think that even if the pandemic ends in a year or so, the economic challenges are going to be lasting, especially for small firms.

We will always have a struggle with tort “reform”—being a capitalist society, that tension is sort of baked into the cake. We will have to fight for individual rights like the right to jury trials and the ability to hold people accountable for causing harm.

From 30,000 feet and trying to look 10 years into the future, I hope to help AAJ’s leadership in any way that I can. Because being a leader is not just about trying to be the pretty flower, it’s about how you seed the field for the next generation. And if you seed other flowers, then your journey will be worthwhile.

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Roxanne Barton Conlin is the founder of Roxanne Conlin & Associates in Des Moines, Iowa, and can be reached at roxanne@roxanneconlinlaw.com. Richard D. Hailey is a founder of Ramey & Hailey in Indianapolis and can be reached at rich@rameyandhaileylaw.com. Navan Ward Jr. is a principal at Beasley Allen Crow Methvin Portis & Miles in Atlanta and can be reached at navan.ward@beasleyallen.com.